history of a Vinnie groove

[Mr. Acrolite]

On Sting's recent CDs, Vinnie popularized a cool approach to odd-time grooves that maintain a "pop" feel.

On, say, a 7/8 groove, he plays quarter notes on the ride. The pattern overlaps the 7/8 bars, repeating itself every two bars. The effect is that the ride is "on" the beat for one bar, and "off" the beat every other bar. (Hope I'm explaining this well enough for you to know what I'm talking about!)

Anyway, it's a slick technique, which helps disguise the fact that it's an odd time signature, and - I think - makes the song more "radio friendly." Good stuff - hats off to Vinnie.

I always assumed he invented that. But today I was listening to the Spin Doctors debut CD, Pocket Full of Kryptonite, with Aaron Comess on drums. In addition to this being a very strong debut effort from a young drummer, on a song called Refrigerator Car he does exactly the same thing on the odd-time intro: quarter notes on the ride that overlap the bar, shifting back and forth between being on and off the beat. And this is on a CD made in 1991!

So who invented this? Or is it maybe a Berklee thing - I believe both drummers did time there.

Any "groove historians" out there with an authoritative answer?

Mr. A.

[Flower of Life]

My teacher told my a similar thing where you take a samba foot pattern and play it over to bars of seven so it is "on the beat" every other bar. Then play anything over it you want, i took a mozambique and transformed it to 7/8.

Anyway, i have never seen anyone do that in pratice (exept for virgil, he did a thing like this) and see if i can get my hands on the the sting tunes. This is indeed an interesting conecpt.

[BennyAndTheSkins]

Also, I think that it's just a way of "smoothing" the groove over, letting the ride, hi-hats, etc.. maintain a constant rhythm, while the measures change around them, as opposed to abruptly stopping these patterns each time a new measure starts. I know that for me, it's much easier, comfortable, etc... to play a tune like "Seven Days", "St. Augustine in Hell", or the like using this method, because it helps me conceptualize how my different limbs fall into place in relation to the measure, from an independence standpoint. If I had to abruptly change the ride pattern, it would be much more difficult for me to pley.

[XNavyDrummer]

The "quarters over the bar line during an odd-time signature" thing has probably been done by a lot of guys in the past. In the '80s and 90's, I played a lot of middle eastern, Armenian, Klehzmer, Greek and Arabic stuff. One of my favorite grooves was to play in 9/8 with quarters on the ride (on "the beat" for one bar, off the "beat" for the next bar etc.). Another thing that was cool was to keep the hands in the 9/8 pattern while playing quarters on the kick. Those were very cool gigs, watching all those people dancing in 10/8, 9/8 and 7/8. A great education!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 13, 2003 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Andy Vermiglio ]</font>

[peter c]

I'm with you, V.

Narada did SO MUCH
for the drums! Those
albums with Jeff and
his "Garden of Love
Light" are some of
my staples!

[img]cool.gif[/img]

[Steve Holmes]

Actually, that's how Sting had it programmed when he played the demos for Vinnie, so that's how he played it.

[Vdrummer]

It wasn't Aaron Comess, though Aaron is a fine drummer.

Vinnie got that concept from Narada Michael Walden from the Jeff Beck tune "Led Boots" off Wired. It's in 7/8 and Narada played 1/4's on top of it. The tune is a superb example of why Narada was a huge talent and drum set innovator. Plus, he played a blistering and hip intro to the song. I believe he's one of Vinnie's less publicized influences. Narada got into producing people like Aretha and Whitney and stopped playing aggressive music.

His playing on Robert Fripps "Breathless" (in 11) and Tommy Bolin's "Marching Powder" are other examples of his hip drumming. Plus, he replaced Cobham in Mahavishnu, which everyone here should be familiar with.

Brad